The cavnessHR podcast – A talk with Bruce Bjorklund
The link to the PDF version of the show notes with the links to the YouTube video is below.
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The cavnessHR Podcast can be found at the following places or you can just type in cavnessHR on the respective app.
iTunes: https://cavnesshr.co/itunesPodcast
Stitcher: https://cavnesshr.co/stitcherCurrentPodcast
Soundcloud: https://cavnesshr.co/theca70aa1
YouTube: https://cavnesshr.co/youtu7e0c3
Anchor: https://cavnesshr.co/ancho95417
Google Play: https://cavnesshr.co/09f33
Spotify: https://cavnesshr.co/spotify
Pocket Casts: https://cavnesshr.co/pocketcasts03262018
Social Media links for Bruce below!!
Website http://www.hyxus.com/
Hyxus Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hyxus/
Bruce’s Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sirrbruce/
Hyxus FB Page https://www.facebook.com/hyxus/
Bruce’s LinkedIn Page https://www.linkedin.com/in/bruce-t-bjorklund-68732336/
Below is Bruces’s book recommendation:
“Rework” by 37signals
Click on the link below to purchase the book from Amazon.
Bruce Bjorklund is a senior software architect, entrepreneur, and US Army veteran. Having moved to the Pacific Northwest after a sudden military career sickness, and like a stroke of luck Bruce got his foot in the door of the video game industry at Gas Powered Games as an entry level production assistant. Upon teaching himself how to code in his spare time, Bruce was taken under the wing of then CEO Chris Taylor, where he was put in charge of his R&D projects. He then continued building games and prototypes for companies like Disney, Microsoft, and Wargaming. Where his beloved gaming studio suddenly lost all contracts. Bruce was selected to stay behind to run a kickstarter to save the company, but was ultimately bought out by Wargaming before the conclusion of the campaign.
Ready to move on to the next challenge, Bruce quit his dream job to chase another dream - starting his own business. After crashing his first startup within the first year, and battling personal life issues. Bruce found himself living out of his mini cooper with his wife and french bulldog. He immediately pivoted and landed himself in enterprise consulting while quickly becoming the go-to consultant for all the high profile contracts; assisting companies like Microsoft, Disney, and Concur.
Bruce’s mentor, Steven Anderson, broke off to start yet another company; Sirrus7, where Bruce left Disney Interactive to take ownership of building an internet-of-things platform from the ground up - Elevat, IOT. Bruce quickly earned the title of chief architect for Elevat, where he has played a critical role in architecting, designing and building a next-generation internet-of-things platform that has successfully raised series A, and was the driving force for over $3 million in revenue.
The entire time Bruce was driving success for his clients, he was also building his next startup - Hyxus, INC, a next-generation agriculture logistics and traceability system that is planned to be released later this year.
Jason: 0:01 Hello, and welcome to the cavnessHR Podcast. I’m your host, Jason Cavness. Our guest today is Bruce Bjorklund. Bruce, are you ready to be great today?
Bruce: 0:11 Heck, yeah.
Jason: 0:14 Bruce is a senior software architect, entrepreneur, a US Army veteran, having moved to the Pacific Northwest after a sudden military career sickness. And, like a stroke of luck, Bruce got his foot in the door of the video game industry at Gas Powered Games as the entry-level production assistant. Upon teaching himself how to code in his spare time, Bruce has taken on the reign of then CEO Chris Taylor, where he was put in charge of his research and development projects. He then continued building games and prototypes for companies like Disney, Microsoft and War Gaming, where his beloved gaming studio suddenly lost all contracts. Bruce was selected to stay behind to run a Kickstarter to save the company but was ultimately bought out by War Gaming before their conclusion of the campaign.
Ready to move on to the next challenge, Bruce quit his dream job to chase another dream – starting his own business. However, after crafting his first startup within the first year, and battling personal life issues. Bruce found myself living out of his Mini Cooper with his wife and French Bulldog. He immediately pivoted and landed himself into enterprise consulting while quickly becoming the go-to consultant for all high-profile contracts, assisting companies like Microsoft, Disney and Concord. Bruce’s mentor, Steven Anderson, broke off to start yet another company – Sirrus7. While Bruce left Disney Interactive to take ownership of building an Internet of Things platform from the ground up – Elevat.IOT – Bruce quickly earned the title of Chief Architect for Elevat, where he played a critical role in architecting, design and building a next generation Internet of Things platform that successfully raised a Series A and was the driving force over three million dollars in revenue. This entire time, while Bruce was driving successful of clients, he was also building the next startup – Hyxus Inc. – incorporated, a next generation agricultural logistics and traceability system that has claimed to be released later this year. Bruce, you're one busy man.
Bruce: 2:27 Yeah. That's a statement, for sure.
Jason: 2:32 So what's going on in the life of Bruce right now?
Bruce: 2:34 I'm involved in three different startups right now. Basically, one of them is a kind of a boutique engineering firm that also is incubating a lot of small startups and internal projects. I kind of bounce around and provide senior ownership of that. Then, at the same time, we're consulting out to the startup Elevat.IOT, where our owner, Steven Anderson , is also the CTO and owns equity in that. So I'm the Chief Architect there and I run all the things and kind of own the technology stack there. Then, of course, the other side, I have my own startup – Hyxus Inc – that I've been working on for about three years and it's starting to really get some momentum. We have a team of almost seven people now; we're getting released later this year. It's getting kind of intense; the final polish is a lot of work.
Jason: 3:26 So, Bruce, how do you manage your time? Like, when the week starts, do you have your mind on how you’re going to spend this percentage on this place, this percentage on this place? How does that usually work out for you?
Bruce: 3:35 It's a system that I kind of wave between super strict where I'm like, okay, this is my task. I’m going to focus on this and these block times. Then at other times, it’s kind of just grabbing and trying to stay busy with most of my time. Generally, I have a notebook and just write down all of the tasks that I’m going to do in a day. Then I try not to go to bed until most of those things are checked off. Then, the next day, I start a new sheet of paper and roll over anything that I didn’t get done. So, it’s a chaotic system, but it actually works really well. It’s just a matter of not losing time to things like video games and stuff that doesn’t really matter. So, it’s a lot of time-optimization.
Jason: 4:20 So, Bruce, I’m sure you look at a lot of tech talent. How do you figure out if the tech talent that you’re looking for if it’s good or bad? How do you go about doing that? How do you determine that?
Bruce: 4:32 So, we’re way different with hiring technical talent. Most shops you’ll go in, they’ll do a whiteboarding session. They’ll drill you, try to see how well you memorize computer science. I take a little bit of a different approach. I only hire, or we only bring in, people from within our network. So you have to, usually, work with someone or be referenced by someone. We focus more on personality. We want to know, if someone’s coming in the door, if they don’t know it, are they going to go chase the answer and find the answer and learn it. We’ve actually hired quite a few veterans (I think, we’re up to 4 veterans we’ve hired this last year that come out of boot camps, stuff like that). we find the right personality and they just chase the dream and make magic happen. That's the type of personalities we go for. People freak out when they go to one of our interviews and we don't do a whiteboard session at all.
Jason: 5:22 Have you found a difference between the Coding Academies and the 4-year college degree?
Bruce: 5:27 Oh, yeah. There's a big difference between the guys that come out depending on which track they go. Generally, I would say, the college kids come out with super strong algorithms, they can drop those on a dime. But, actually, they lack the practical knowledge of being able to build within modern tech stacks, specifically, in things like Node and Angular. There's a massive ramp-up on teaching them best practices and building real applications. Conversely, the guys that come out of the boot camps are really good with the best practices. Because that's all that they really teach there. They're able to get up going pretty quick and are able to do a lot of that lower-level stuff around front-end development and what I call middleweight back-end work. But they really stumble when it gets to the heavy-lifting algorithms – not always, but generally. We start getting the more complex systems that you kind of need a little bit of a computer science exposure background. That's when they’ve got to go Google and seek mentorship from the guys that have that. That's kind of what I've seen the last couple of years.
Jason: 6:29 When a developer starts working for you, how long does It take you to figure out, “okay, this guy's going to make it, or I need to train this guy up some more, he’s not as good as I thought he was”?
Bruce: 6:41 Actually, because of our process of not doing whiteboard interviews, that's usually within a month. I would say, people make it or break it within 60 to 90 days of being hired. Because when you're not in a culture like what we've developed of no micromanagement, hands-off, work-from-home, show up when you want, work where you want, deliverable-based meritocracy. Some people just don't thrive in that environment and they burn out pretty quick.
Jason: 7:13 It’s amazing how many people say they want that but when the truth comes down, it's like, “oh, wow, this is not what I thought it was going to be; I can’t handle this.”
Bruce: 7:21 I'm talking about PhD and senior developers that try and come to this culture and they just miss dates and stuff like that. Whereas, junior devs coming out of boot camps, especially the veterans, they thrive, they just go. So it's interesting, that's for sure.
Jason: 7:43 So there's a lot of startups being started by non-tech people, like myself. What advice would have for people like me who really have no tech talent on how to look for it and find it?
Bruce: 7:54 So, kind of going back to that reference thing. Generally, it's scary because you've got to find someone you're going to trust with all of your time and your product and your vision in someone and not only do they need to carry that. But they have to do the right thing and think about a lot of things about tech and impact to timelines and stuff like that. So it's really about finding someone who has the experience, and not just the resume experience. But do they actually have the chops of doing the work. I’ve tweeted how many people I've seen with senior backgrounds that, when it comes to architecting an app or a product. They just don't think about the big picture. So I would ask for talk-through on how they would actually implement and how they’d manage timeline. When you're owning a product, it's not as much technical as you think. Of course, you want the guy to be super, super technical.
Bruce: It’s like, for you, if you bring in a CTO, you want to know that guy's going to be able to review people's code and make sure good code’s going out the door. That can be really scary sometimes. I don't know what it's like to be a non-technical guy, to be honest with you, trying to find a technical guy. But it's kind of funny because one of the partners in my day job, Mike Greene. I would say he's not non-technical, but he doesn't write code – he's a data guy – and he's out interviewing and bringing in engineers and, somehow, that guy's figured it out. He brings good people in and it's just genuine conversation. You can check out from people after a few conversations if they're genuine or legit or not. Then, like I said, you kind of have to take your chances with someone because it’s all about trust and, within that first deliverable or two, if that person's going to make it or break it. That was a good problem. How did you solve it?
Jason: 9:53 I've just got out there networking, talking to people in the field. You’ve just got to keep on putting yourself out there and telling your story. And I got lucky.
Bruce: 10:04 I remember when we were talking, a few months back, you were looking for that guy. But it sounds like you've got him.
Jason: 10:08 So, the next question. Let’s suppose that somebody’s watching this podcast, he/she is a software developer, they’re not in your network, but they’re like, “you know what, I want to work for Bruce.” What would that person have to do to get your attention?
Bruce: 10:23 That's a really good question. I love cold-call door knocks, “hey, I know you don't know me, but I want to work for you. Or I want to work on your product and I'm going to come in and kick ass.” I had this veteran that I randomly added on LinkedIn and he sent me a DM and was like, “hey, I'm trying to learn to code and I can’t get an internship anywhere. I will do whatever it takes.” I was like, “dude, yeah, let's meet up.” I actually met up with him for coffee this morning and he's going to be an intern on my side project. That's actually how I got my foot in the door. After I got out of the military, I ended up, as a lost little puppy, and I just sent out really powerful (I wouldn’t say “powerful”) but I really sold myself and cover letters to every video game studio in Seattle. To every executive, to the HR group, I just blasted them, but I made it personal. I actually took the time to research and I put a lot of effort into it. I got a call-back from the VP of Engineering and he gave me an entry level job. I don't think people really realize how business is just people working with each other and if you just send your resume, I don't care about your resume. I don't know how many times I've seen your junior devs, or even senior devs. They just send a resume and I would rather work with someone who's going to take the effort to tell me a little about themselves and how they want to be a part of it than, “here's my resume, I want to work.”
Jason: 11:54 Exactly. You know that guy's going to be hungry, he’s going to do his best for you, the best he can.
Bruce: 12:00 Yeah, exactly. Plus, the passion and the camaraderie that comes with that kind of personality is worth its weight way more than someone who's just showing up.
Jason: 12:08 Yes. So, what’s the name of your startup again?
Bruce: 12:11 It’s Hyxus Inc.
Jason: 12:12 So what’s the vision for that?
Bruce: 12:15 It’s pretty big so I'll try and boil it down. I'm the CEO, I should be able to say it right off the top my head. But, basically, what we're trying to solve is building a next generation logistics platform that helps farmers and I should say the entire supply chain of agriculture to track everything. All the tasks they have to do, all the work they have to do and collecting all that data and creating a single vision. So managers and stakeholders can actually make decisions based off that information. We're particularly targeting the cannabis industry because of how hot it is right now and the monetization opportunity there. But, in general, agriculture across the board. Labor is managed through whiteboards, verbal communication, text messages, and we're starting to see some more real-time IOT stuff. But it's still really immature and isn't really a platform for managing your labor in real time. So that's kind of what we're solving and that's kind of the crawl stages. We've built this system to basically track what all your labor is doing in real time. They have their cell phone around and they can track what they're doing and management can issue tasks. But then we're going to be migrating into the walk-and-run stage and that's when we're going to start doing Internet of Things. Hooking up all the hardware and my big target is indoor gross, specifically, for managing all the equipment that's in there and hopefully being able to create a turn-key solution where everything’s automated.
Jason: 13:45 So I'm sure you talked to a lot of potential customers. How do they feel about the idea? Are they like, “oh, well we’re used to doing things our own way,” how do you open them up to new technology? How do you go about doing that?
Bruce: 13:56 I pitched to a business type of some kind in a market ranging from a farm all the way to a bakery that uses the product that comes from the farm to make things. The feedback we're getting back is incredible. We demoed to a bakery last week and they just, hands-down, said that there's nothing like this in the market. We're going to roll with you the second you go live, “when are you going to be live?” That's kind of been the tone with everyone we've shown the product to. We've been in stealth-mode for three years so we've only shown about a dozen entities now. Ranging from your classic, small, hippie farm to your middle-sized, multimillion dollar, hundred-person company to the full-on enterprise like huge Wal-Mart size indoor gross. Every single person’s eyes kind of go big when we, not only show the vision, but we show the product. I come from the video game industry, so most of the competition was with the other software providers. They've kind of built a mini Excel sheet for you and you can imagine (I'm going to paraphrase), you hire 20 stoners off the street and you throw them at this Excel sheet to try and track logistics and it doesn't work. Just put it like that – they pick one guy and that one guy manages the system. So I built this from a video game perspective where it's very visual, it's very fluid and people aren’t intimidated by using it. So that's kind of our approach and a little bit of a niche compared to most everyone else.
Jason: 15:28 Bruce, you bring up a great point. I think you said you’ve been working on this for three years. It's amazing how many people out there who think, “oh, I'll be an overnight success and I'll start it today, tomorrow it’ll be worth a billion dollars.” I don’t think they realize how long this process really takes. It’s not an overnight success for anyone – Steve Jobs took about 8 years. It's a long process. A lot of people don’t realize that.
Bruce: 15:53 Then they make it sound like an overnight success. But when I first started my startup, I thought exactly that – 6 months later I’m going to be a millionaire, crashed that one. I started this one and I was like, “okay, in a year.” A year went by and I was like, “oh, s***, I need to rewrite all my code. I've learned things from my customers, they don't like the approach I did.” Then two years go by, and I'm like, “oh, man, I have something. But now I need to drop thirty grand on branding and design,” Then we showed that to customers and they went, “this is amazing, but now we want compliance. We want this integrated with the state compliant system and we won’t pay for it until that because I'm already paying for that system.” So then it’s like, “okay, alright, let's go build compliance,” and now we're almost done with that. So, because we listen to customers and we’ve pivoted every time customers said, “this is what we need,” I think we, three years of hard work, and whether we make it or break it, I'm proud of the work we've done.
Jason: 16:50 Bruce, can you talk about a time you were successful in the past, what you learned from this, and what we can learn from this success?
Bruce: 16:57 One of the big successes is I was building an IOT platform for (I’m just going to say an undisclosed Fortune 200). We were building this thing and their technology provider just wasn't ready for us. So we went ahead and built the solution to work without them and then, of course, stakeholders come down, they're like, “oh, we've got to make this work.” So, we basically, through a Hail Mary, grinding around the clock all last fall. We were able to make magic happen and we shipped this product and everyone was super happy and customers came back and signed in a whole other year contract. Even though it wasn't our fault, things were delayed and stuff like that. Really, what I'm trying to say from that success is: sometimes you just have to put your shoulder into hard work and magic happens when you actually work hard for people and you're not just focused on the money, you're just focused on doing the right thing. It's incredible what doing the right thing can do.
Jason: 18:06 Yes, it is. Next, talk about a time you failed, what you learned from this failure, and what we can learn from this.
Bruce: 18:13 I was pondering that question a bit. I was wondering, do I go super hardcore, do I keep it kind of light and happy? But I think I would just drop the bomb. I was in the military. After my tour in Iraq as a medic, I wanted a ROTC scholarship and I ended up in ROTC and I started having health issues and I didn't manage that well at all. I went to the bottle, started drinking, not making good choices. Then next thing you know, the VA is throwing me on a dozen pills for PTSD and I wasn't communicating with my command very well on what was going on. Because I was afraid I was going to get the boot and I just wasn't taking care of my health. I ended up losing my career because of it. I ended up getting the boot. I ended up checking myself in for suicidal thoughts and I got kicked out for unbecoming an officer for suicidal thoughts. It was devastating. Absolutely, I loved the military, I loved the career; I was going to go life and it was completely ripped away from me. I was really salty for two years. I blamed the military, blamed the command – all that classic victimizing stuff.
Bruce: Then, after I started to leave from that phase, I was like, you know what, I was the one that stumbled, I wasn’t the one taking the initiative and going to other doctors to get second opinions. I wasn't the one being aggressive, talking to my command like I'm not in a good spot. I could have talked to them well before I checked myself in for suicide – I waited till the last moment. So, I’ve kind of picked up this phrase: “wait till the last responsible moment” from this whole ordeal. I think the big takeaway from that is, if you're not doing good, or you're not performing well. Take a step back and re-evaluate things and don't just try to ignore it because things aren’t just going to fix themselves. After the whole ordeal with the military, I was like, “F this, I'm not going to quit, I’m going to get back at it.” Next thing I know, I'm a software engineer and then I'm an architect and I'm working for big companies like Microsoft and getting my voodoo back and I'm killing it. What it really came down to is success is on the other side of work. I didn't put in the work to take care of my health when I was in the military or during the end of that part of ROTC. Not everything was in my control, but I could have done a lot more.
Jason: 20:55 That’s a great story. Bruce, next talk about someone who’s helped you in the past and how they helped you.
Bruce: 21:03 Oh, man. So after the military I got kicked out, I was like, “I'm going to go back to school,” because I don't really have anything going on. So I was in school and I wasn't doing well and I was really struggling going through the VA treatment program and this guy there. He was a drill sergeant, I think he was a CAV guy. He's retired and he kind of took me under his wing and he was like, “Bruce, you know you can do something about this, right? You don't have to have your dog tags hanging in the mud,” ( a phrase from the military). He kind of picked me up by my boot straps and he's like, “march in that direction, man, and you’re going to be fine.” Basically, what happened was is that Pacific Lutheran University (PLU), when I got kicked out, for the college I was going to, specifically, they double-fined me for my tuition; all these bad things happened and I was going to lose school and I ended up writing this twenty-page paper to my Congress and senators and to all the bosses at the school. I ended up getting this big meeting and they resolved everything. They wiped away the debt, they were like, “come back to school.” Mike Farnham, he's now in charge of the veteran outreach program at the school because the school realized, “oh, we have veterans that are having issues and our school isn't handling their unique problems.” So they stood up an entire division for taking care of vets. The guy that kind of shepherd me through writing that paper to my congress – woman, I should say – and senators. He's now in charge of that program. He put me on the right path just by reaching out and saying, hey, I'm not doing good, kind of being a little vulnerable. He did his drill sergeant thing and he got me straightened away. I owe that man all my success, almost.
Jason: 22:52 At the time, you were open to receiving that help and that's a good thing, too.
Bruce: 22:56 Yeah, and not being afraid of being vulnerable. I think, a lot of us from military background, I think American society in general, we’re afraid of being vulnerable and opening up.
Jason: 23:06 Oh, yes. Bruce, next, tell us something about you that most people don't know. Of course, your close family, close friends know this but, people that know you in day-to-day life don't know this about you.
Bruce: 23:16 So, (I kind of played around with this one in my head a little), when I was in the Army, I was petrified of letting anybody know this. I didn't let anybody know – and even today, I still haven’t let a lot of people know. So I’ll probably get a lot of crap for this, but after high school, I went to college and I played football and went to state every year. I thought I was a little stud (I’m 5’8”, I'm not very big – college humbled me). My best friend went and became a cheerleader at the University of Utah and was like, “man, you’ve got to come and do this, this is a blast, you're just around girls all day and you work out a ton – it’s amazing.” So I did it and I got in and I was a cheerleader at the University of Utah. On the football field, tossing girls around, doing the whole dance and pony show, and I never really told anybody. But, in retrospect, it was one of the funnest times of my life.
Jason: 24:05 Well, that's a great story. Next, Bruce, I understand you have a book to recommend for our listeners.
Bruce: 24:13 Yeah. I’d probably get made fun of for the other developers and entrepreneurs listening on, but I love the book Rework by 37signals. It's a little esoteric in nature, but if you're looking in “how do I do a startup without dropping tons of money and oh my gosh I'm just a Joe Schmoe.” It's a great book to get you motivated and kind of give you a different view on how you can approach entrepreneurship. It was one of the books that I read after my failure and (I don't know if I'm paraphrasing), but, basically, fail fast, fail hard and pivot and iterate. When you don't have a lot of the resources, it's amazing on how effective that is. So, good book to pick up.
Jason: 24:57 Bruce, next, I understand you have something for our listeners today.
Bruce: 25:08 So, the thing I've been saying for entrepreneurship, if you're looking to get into it, “embrace the suck” is the phrase I like to use. It's not going to be fun, entrepreneurship is just a lot of work, and it's not fun work, it's reading contracts, reading legalese and all this crazy stuff. Just push through it, embrace it, learn it, learn to like it and you'll be surprised after six months. A year, you're like, “oh, I know how to read contracts, I know how to write contracts, I know how to do all this stuff that I would have been extremely intimidated, or maybe even not even done.” Push yourself through and chase your dreams. You’d be surprised by what happens.
Jason: 25:51 Yes. It’s amazing how much stuff you learn during this process.
Bruce: 25:56 Yeah. A dozen hats, basically, is what you end up doing.
Jason: 25:59 Easily. So, Bruce, can you tell our listeners your social media contacts in case they want to reach out to you, either for yourself or your companies?
Bruce: 26:08 So our company is just Hyxus on Instagram and Facebook. You can go to our website Hyxus.com. Then, myself, I have an Instagram – it's sirrbruce – feel free to hit me up on there. And then my Facebook for myself – don't touch me on that (I’m kidding). I'm on Facebook as well at Bruce Bjorklund but, apparently, there's a million of us so good luck finding me. I'm also on LinkedIn with Bruce Bjorklund, but I'm the only nerd so not as hard to find.
Jason: 26:46 Yes. Bruce, we’ve come to the end of our talk. Can you provide our listeners any last-minute words of wisdom or advice?
Bruce: 26:55 Yeah. Don't quit. Quitting lasts forever, and if you're chasing a dream, just push a little bit harder. You might be surprised. One of my mentors, my favorite phrase he’s ever said is, “when you're on a hike, and you're kind of walking up to a bunch of bushes and stuff and you're freaking out because you can't find a path. You just take a deep breath and maybe walk a little to the left, walk a little to the right. Maybe you might find a little path through that obstacle instead of quitting and turning around and walking the ten miles back.” So don't quit.
Jason: 27:26 That's also great advice if you’re doing the Army Land Navigation course.
Bruce: 27:29 Yes, yes it is. I've actually had that happen to me once – I couldn't find that last point for the life of me.
Jason: 27:38 Bruce, thank you for your time, I really appreciate it. I know you’re a busy guy and you’ve got a lot going on and you gave us a lot of valuable advice today.
Bruce: 27:44 Yeah, my pleasure. It was great to be a part of your podcast.
Jason: 27:47 To our listeners, thank you for your time as well, and remember to be great every day.
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Social Media links for Bruce below!!
Website http://www.hyxus.com/
Hyxus Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hyxus/
Bruce’s Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sirrbruce/
Hyxus FB Page https://www.facebook.com/hyxus/
Bruce’s LinkedIn Page https://www.linkedin.com/in/bruce-t-bjorklund-68732336/
Below is Bruces’s book recommendation:
“Rework” by 37signals
Click on the link below to purchase the book from Amazon.
CavnessHR: Focus on your business, we've got your HR
Be Great Every Day!
