The cavnessHR Podcast

a talk with Chris Oltyan, CEO of Rebric.io

CavnessHR

The cavnessHR podcast – A talk with Chris Oltyan, CEO at Rebric.io

The PDF version of the show notes is at this link.

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iTunes: https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/the-cavnesshr-podcast/id1289104534
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Anchor: https://anchor.fm/cavnesshr
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Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/episode/0fEto7oiAT70B9ZB1fvHMd

Social Media links for Chris below!!

http://rebric.io/
https://www.linkedin.com/company/25061398/
https://www.facebook.com/rebric.hr/
https://twitter.com/rebric_io
https://www.linkedin.com/in/chrisoltyan/

Below are Chris’ book recommendations:

“Why good people can’t get jobs” by Peter Cappeli

http://amzn.to/2k9dkD1
http://amzn.to/2COD8fA
http://amzn.to/2B1xjOt

“Jim Collins’ Built to Last”

http://amzn.to/2yMG1tY
http://amzn.to/2BzINZ1

Free Resources:

Rebric.io will help you find a web front-end developer for free. As long as you are willing to work with Rebric.io on defining that position. You would be taking part in our beta that we are expanding for another ten people.

Jason: 0:00 Hello, and welcome to the cavnessHR Podcast. I'm your host, Jason Cavness. Our guest today is Chris Oltyan. Chris, are you ready to be great today?

Chris: 0:10 Yes, I am.

Jason: 0:12 Chris is an experienced entrepreneur who has started and sold over nine companies and helped bring over 30 software products on the market. A Certified Scrum Master and Scrum Product Owner. He is a strong advocate of Agile and lean practices from titles like the Big Bang Theory and Pokemon Trading Card Game to massive cloud infrastructural platforms for Pearson and Aetna. He has led teams that have created an incredibly broad set of technologies and demonstrated his mastery of the art of getting stuff done. Chris, once again thank you for being here. What's going on in your life right now? What are you working on so right now?

Chris: 0:50 Right now, as CEO of Rebric, we've been developing a product that has machine learning backend that helps people identify whether or not their applicants have the experience actually needed to get the job done. So, we've been going through a bunch of iterations on that; we are just closing up a couple positions for people where we evaluated and learned a lot about the process on how this all works. So, it's kind of been an exciting time here. We're excited to get ready to kind of ramp that up and get people on it. In general, it's just been learning about the different aspects of how to try and make this business successful and what we're going to be doing in the future and planning that out. Understanding both how the machine learning systems work and then how the human interfaces into those will actually yield worthwhile results.

Jason: 1:47 How did Rebric start? Was it a problem you were solving for yourself, or was it a problem you saw in the marketplace? How did Rebric start?

Chris: 1:56 A very definitive moment of when I was looking for a job a year and a half ago. Where I was writing my resume again for like the tenth time and writing a cover letter for the twentieth time and just ready to flip the table in frustration. I was sending all these things out, I was getting no feedback, I was getting no information and I was just like there has to be a better way. So, I started looking and I found all this research that had been done that, beyond a shadow of a doubt, proved that humans were very bad at evaluating whether or not humans could do the job. Papers from Harvard, Wharton, Northwestern, everyone, had all this evidence that said hiring basically was broken. In particular, a set of articles that stood out to me were by Peter Capelli https://www.linkedin.com/in/peter-cappelli-14936a3 at the Wharton School of Business – he's a Professor of Management there and the director for the Center of Human Resources – and he wrote this great book called Why Good People Can't Get Jobs. I read it and it was just eye-opening; it was everything that I had complained about laid out with data, cases, things to make it better. I'm like, “this is awesome, who's doing this.” I started looking around and was going to apply to every job who was using these sorts of systems and knew how to do it and nobody was doing it. I'm like, “Really? Really.” Then I just kind of moved on from there and decided that if nobody else was going to do it, I guess I had to.

Jason: 3:25 There’s so many things wrong with the hiring system. It’s like you always hear you have a better chance to get a job if you have a job. Like I've never understood that. Or like if you have a 1-2year gap, that's something negative. What if you're doing something productive like taking care of a sick parent or traveling – it has so many of these biases like first impression bias – most people judge somebody within the first 20 seconds. There’s just so much broken with the whole system.

Chris: 3:50 It's actually called “confirmation bias,” and this was one of the studies that I came across that was just terrifying in power. Within the first ten seconds, you will form an opinion of a person and you will spend the remaining half-hour of that interview either confirming your positive impression and asking questions and interacting well and doing things well so that person succeeds. Or if you don't like them, every little nuanced mistake they make you'll just dig in more, make them more nervous or cause them to make mistakes. It's so powerful. In even unconscious bias, one of the great stories that I came across was the New York Philharmonic. They had been looking at their ratios of male to female performers who made it into the main Orchestra, and it was really disproportionately male-heavy. Even though their applicant pool was about 50/50. Now, they knew that there was no magic thing that men had that women didn't have that made them better musicians; it wasn't a mental state, it wasn't anything. They had plenty of examples to this effect, so they decided to change stuff up. Step one, they put a curtain – they just hung a sheet in front of the judges so they couldn't see the person performing. From 70% pass-through on male went to 60% pass-through. But it was still kind of a little biased, something else is wrong, and then they're like, “oh, when women came in performance attire they would typically wear high heels which has a distinct sound,” (these were musicians, they paid a lot of attention to sound). They put in carpeted floors so you couldn't tell what people were walking in on and – BAM – 50/50 ratio. It's almost like humans are filled with unconscious bias that they aren't aware of.

Jason: 5:32 It's true. The solution is how do you get past all that and get the best candidate and hopefully that's a probably you can solve at Rebric.

Chris: 5:42 Well, I think it's not complicated. We place this huge burden on hiring managers and employees that somehow they will magically look at a person, ask a random set of questions and then, “sure, you can do the job.” Humans are horrible at that. Even in any study, just looking at something like estimation, like try to estimate how long a task is going to be, humans – very bad at that. We are very good at comparative analysis, though, and in particular machine learning systems are really excellent at comparative analysis. So, what you can do is, if you actually compare apples to apples – which is hard to do as a human. Because you have a lot of variability in an interview. But if you ask the same questions and you grade everything on completely objective criteria, while a machine learning system isn't good at saying this is better than something else, that's something that a human would be good at – this is good, this is bad. But a machine learning system can tell you this thing looks like this thing. So, what we try to do is we let you grade people coming in just with a couple examples and then that provides the machine learning system enough information for it to be able to say, “hey, you think this person is really great, well these people resemble that person really closely across these arbitrary criteria.” I'm not going to say they're good or bad at the job, it's just this thing looks like this thing across things that humans are not good at identifying. And it's worked really well with a couple of the customers that we've worked with so far.

Jason: 7:14 It's always amazed me how many people out there – hiring managers, leaders, managers – who say, “I'm great at picking talent,” but in truth, they're really not. How do we get past that? Is it just human ego or…?

Chris: 7:25 It is a human ego thing and it's a human data thing. Like if you go up to your HR department and go to them and say, “hey, can you let me know which interview questions we've used over the past three years that have yielded the best candidates?” If they say, “absolutely, here's the statistical plot of all the questions that we ask and the efficacy of each of those on determining whether or not this person will succeed that the company.” It's usually, “we don't have that, we don't have any data, we don't know what makes a good employee; we just know that if they're willing.” It depends on the company; “hey, we want heroes and rockstars.” You hear rockstar a lot – basically, it's, “I want somebody who, if they can't get the job done will crush their soul into a fine bone paste so that I can make my product sausages out of it, and if you're not willing to jump into that grinder. It's not going to work because we're really just want a rockstar here.”

Jason: 8:20 That’s very true.

Chris: 8:21 The sad truth is, every company has its own magical amounts of dysfunction and, really, identifying people who can succeed and thrive in there should be more of a focus. But HR doesn't have the data or the tools to do that right now.

Jason: 8:34 Chris, next let's switch to your experience with products. Over the years, how has your experience with the development of products evolved over the years?

Chris: 8:43 So, it started off having absolutely no idea what I was doing and using the methodology of, I guess if I work an infinite number of hours. Something good will probably happen because random probability states that that's just the way things are. The video game industry was particularly conducive to this thinking. Props to people who are in the video game industry because if you're trying to build tax software, you can say, “hey, I need this software to allow users to calculate their tax rates.” So, it's like, “hey, you can test for that.” When you're building something, you're like, “I need this to be fun and exciting.” You're like, “yeah, have no idea what you add; it's not like we need to reduce three bugs and then we'll have something fun and exciting; it’s not some magical, mystical thing.” The only way people had gotten there in the past, a lot with these passionate CEOs and startup companies to make video games, was to work infinite hours. I did that a few times, decided that while it sometimes yielded good results, it sometimes didn't and there had to be a better way. So, that's where I really started investigating agile practices and methodologies and just expanding my toolbox of, “hey, working a hundred hours is not going to solve this problem but working smarter at 40 hours will.”

Chris: So, how can we work really smart? Coming up with ways to optimize teams coming up with ways to optimize interactions and communication. That started to really help on the project management side; product management was kind of later in my career after I got a good handle on getting stuff done – well, if you build something that nobody cares about really quickly, you're still not in a great place. So, as my career went forward, I got more and more in charge of, “hey, this thing actually has to do something useful at the end of the day.” So, that transition really got me into analytics, business information, metrics, thinking about pipelines and funnels and how people interacted with it and getting that data. Then using my production and design knowledge to – in the video game side, people are really not using this aspect of the game; it's hard to reach, it's hard to understand – it's like figuring out, coming up with that hypothesis, doing the iteration on the product so that it meets those needs to solve that problem. Then, most importantly, validating that it actually works; so, you put it out there, you see your numbers increase, you're like, “great, I did it,” or you see your numbers stay static and you're like, “hmm I guess I did not do that right; I'm going to have to take another look at that.”

Jason: 11:29 Chris, over the years, what tools have you come to like or like to use it when you’re building products? Any certain ones that are your go-to tools?

Chris: 11:37 So, in a pinch, if I'm a small team and we're moving at light speed, Trello https://trello.com/home is a really nice organizational toss it up, work with it, not a lot of overhead. That starts to fall down when you get a bunch of teams collaborating, and you need something like Rally, I've used, which, I guess, is CA Agile central now after they got purchased. https://www.ca.com/us.html But that's a powerful tool it leads you down a road, a really pivotal tracker, it's a pretty prescribed method of using Agile methodologies but it's a good one so it helps you get in the habit of doing things the right way. Then there's the, when you get to the largest levels of dysfunction in the world, your Fortune 500 companies that have 300 people coordinating across 70 teams to build a single piece of software, that giant fustercluck requires something of epic proportions that can be customized to the specific dysfunction of that organization, that's when you have to go to JIRA. https://www.atlassian.com/software/jira JIRA lets you do whatever you want but JIRA lets you do whatever you want. So, if you have some really poor wants and desires, it will totally enable you to do things that you really shouldn’t be doing.

Jason: 12:56 Chris, from your point-of-view – this is a two-part question – what are the pros and cons of working at a large corporation like Aetna, and then what are the pros and cons for working at a startup, from your point-of-view?

Chris: 13:06 So, I'll start with the Fortune 500, because the pros are pretty straightforward. My AWS budget when I was at Pearson was 1 million dollars a month; that's what I got to spend on servers. That is a lot of money. I was working on a $140 million project that had this additional budget tacked on to it because the original $140M wasn't going to cover it. So, it's just the resources available were ridiculous. The cons of that was if what you needed didn't fit their definition, you just had to figure out the bureaucratic nightmare of doing anything – “I need a new piece of software. Well, I have this $5 million budget,” doesn't mean that I can just buy that software, it means that I have to normalize it across VPs, get a change of review board, get this person to sign off, go around this person, take that person out to dinner, shake this person's hand, make another presentation, make another presentation, present again the same thing to the same people who forgot the first time that you presented it. Then finally you get your sign-off and you get the thing that you need to move forward. Once that was all in place, really good ability to go. Then you just have large corporation dysfunction. Which is various different people who had been there or a lot of crusty code that has deteriorated over the decades and just happened to deal with that legacy stuff. So, that's kind of the cons. For a small company, it's kind of like inversed – it’s always new and fresh and exciting. It's cool to have the flexibility to do whatever you want but, boy, can you paint yourself into a corner quick. The number of startups that I've been at – and I tended to go with earlier-stage startups – I was employee seven to twelve at a bunch of places, usually the first production or project or product person to come in other than the CEO.

Chris: So, really nice blue ocean to explore both on process, on different things. The things that usually killed me at small companies is (a) resources; when I did need to spend $5000 to do something, that was like, “oh, we just don't have it to spend on that,” and I'm like, “never mind, okay.” So, there was that, and then there's the willful disregard for paying for a solution. Corporations are the extreme opposite, “I don't want to solve this with our internal people because that's too complicated. I'll just pay ten million dollars and have somebody else solve it for me. Small companies are, “well, I could pay ten thousand dollars to get this really solid reporting-monitoring thing, or we could build it ourselves and work an infinite number of hours.” I'm like, “that's cool, but we haven't thought this through, we haven't designed this as a product, we're just slapping band-aids on this giant, hemorrhaging wound. Why not bring in a doctor to sew us up first, or something like that; spend some money to get a solid foundation.” That was my biggest frustration with small companies is the need to build it there, need to do everything there. I'm like that's cool to an extent. But there are a lot of people who spend billions of dollars creating things that are pretty useful (some of it’s crap, but some of it's really nice), might as well leverage that and then you don't have to, every single time there's a bug, pull your entire team off to fix your original tools. When the company crosses that threshold and starts doing it. I think that's where the greatest chance for success is, and that's usually a 50 to 100 people where that real, come-to-Jesus moment is of, “are we going to continue running this like fly-by-the-seat-of-our-pants, shoot-from-the-hip, or are we really going to lay down some solid frameworks for people to succeed going forward.

Jason: 16:52 Chris, all the founders and co-founders out there right now starting companies or just the founders on the team, when would you recommend that they start looking at bringing in a product manager? Like employee number 4, employee number 10?

Chris: 17:04 So, let's talk about process. Process is either human interactions, it can be controlled by a tool or whatever. But it's a method of getting things done. You have process around your code development, process around how you get marketing campaigns into place. The people who own that process are generally the people doing the work at a small company. Like your marketing director is designing the campaign, figuring out the flows of how they're getting the assets, creating the assets, advertising it, and deciding to change up ads, where to advertise, that sort of thing. Your developers are, “hey, we need to build this thing,” well, here's the architecture, let's design this thing out first, let's piece it together like that.” That all works because, when you have a small enough product or small enough team, those people can provide both of those resources. Once you see your team's going forward saying, “hey, we need some help with process around doing this thing and we no longer have the time to tackle that ourselves.” That's when you need to bring in a product manager or a project manager. When your team can no longer shoulder the burden of that process, and you'll either have to make a choice up, “it's fine, I understand we'll get fewer features done. But I want you guys to really own and drive that process.” If it gets to a point where it's just too complicated and you see things flying out of control or you're missing dates and stuff. Even though the team is spending a lot of time on process, that's when you get in somebody whose passion and goal in life is to develop great process.

Jason: 18:47 Chris, next, can you talk about a time you were successful in the past, what you learned from the success and then what our listeners can learn from the success you had in the past?

Chris: 18:56 So, I'll contrast it with exiting from a company. To me, that's like a real quick check mark – success. If you start a company and you successfully exit, to me, that's a great success. I have two interesting tales of company success. So, the first one was my first company – and I did not deserve success in that at all – but I achieved. I had an internet startup company in 1997, my business plan – I spent time to write this business plan and plot out these financials – was I was going to lose five million dollars a year, for four years, but, in year five, I was only going to lose 1 million dollars. That was my business plan; and it was a horrible plan, it had no hope of ever making money and I was able to sell that company to the SegaSoft for like 2000% return on investment. It was ridiculous. There was no reason why that company should have been successful. Then, in fact, it led me to a false sense of security that caused me to lose all the money that I had made by the third venture. But, that aside, it was still success. The more recent one that I've taken all those and learned from on the exit is when I exited something called Doctor-Speak.

Chris: I had gone on as an advisor helping them develop their tech stack when they realized they were way out of their comfort zone in developing the tech. I came on as Interim CTO, I helped them design the product to get it built to prototype so that they could pitch to investors and, at that point, they wanted to kind of go all-in. I was like, “I'm good, so I'll just sit here on my giant pile of lottery tickets, i.e. stock, and you guys go to it. They're like, “well, we'd like to buy you out.” I'm like, “that's fine, too, but the reason why I was helping you guys is I did want these lottery tickets; I think you guys have a shot at it, I really want that potential upside,” They're like, “okay, we understand.” So, they bought me out and then they gave me an option, or they gave me a warrant, that was, if they got a valuation of six million dollars within the next two years, that they would pay me a $55,000 bonus, which was great. The reason why, to me, that was successful was I defined the parameters of how I was going to work with them and how I was going to help.

Chris: I was working ten hours a week for them and when I got to ten hours, I stopped and I was like, “not going to get this stuff done.” That was a little frustrating for them, at times, but I very clearly laid out what my availability and my willingness to do new stuff was at the start of this thing and made it no bones whatsoever when I was getting close to those timelines. So, they understood; it worked because we had those expectations up front. Also I made sure I gave myself 10-hours work – every now and then it went over just because I wanted to help them be successful. But, for the most part, I defined what I wanted out of the experience, I told them what I was willing to do to do that, they said yes and it was a great experience. I exited, got a nice, decent pile of cash, and they went off and are doing their thing. So, I think, that, to me, was the culmination of learning what success is – it's not necessarily the hugest payout. It's understanding what you want going into it. Understanding what it was worth to you, and then making sure you don't cross your lines. You get to the end of it and you have a very satisfying experience.

Jason: 22:29 Chris, now can you talk about a time you failed in the past, what you learned from this, and what our listeners can learn from this?

Chris: 22:34 Ah, failure. So, yes, it has happened. I think probably one of the key things on failure for me was company number three – this was after I did two internet startups. I was flying high I was like, “I'm so good at business-ing. I have these ideas and then just people throw money at me, it's wonderful. I have this other idea, I'm sure people will just throw money at me.” Starting a company in 1998 versus 2003 is very different. So, Co Studios was a PlayStation 2 and Xbox developer that I had started up with some friends, and we actually have gotten started on Gameboy Advance stuff. My problem, and the problem for that entire company, was (a) I had an inflated sense of what I could accomplish on my own, and (b) once I realized that I was out of my element and I went to ask other people for help. I was completely unfocused in that ask. So, I would ask – we got a really nice board of advisors together for this company. But they each had different ideas on what we should be doing, and I immediately jumped on anything that they said we should be doing. I immediately started doing that thing and then we found that it wouldn't work for X, Y or Z reasons.

Chris: At the end of that experience, after we burned through all our money. After the 18 hours a day, seven days a week thing – that was rough – we came out of it and I had a couple key things that I picked up from that experience that helped me have later successes. It's, one, understanding when it's time to quit – that's a great lesson to learn – that's a variable scale. But you have to, at some point, say it is not worth me cashing in my life savings and putting in everything in order to make this go. It needs to have some metrics for success to justify that sort of investment. (b) Understanding when to listen to advice, and how do you use advice. Somebody saying you should do this does not mean you should do that; it means you should listen to that. Understand why they're asking you to do that, does it make sense for your business, and, if it does, figuring out the best way to do that. But if you don't have a strong sense of direction, you're never going to be a good leader for your organization. If you jump ship on every idea that you're on the second somebody suggests something new, you're not going to get very far. So, that was the other lesson I think that was key there.

Jason: 25:05 Chris, talk about someone who's helped you in the past and how they helped you out.

Chris: 25:10 So, I think Eric Marr Coulier, https://www.linkedin.com/in/bpm140 who is an entrepreneur who I've known for decades now. I met him when we were both in the video game industry. We got along really well, we kept in touch, we were both entrepreneurs we both started companies. Then a group of about ten of us who knew each other in these various contexts. They would come and go I would say me and my friend, Dustin, were moderately successful on the entrepreneurial scene. Then he just blew it out of the water – he had a company that he sold to Twitter – had a pretty good exit from that, had a couple other really good exits, too. So, he made it and we always kept in touch and when I was doing Rebric. He was kind of key in helping me keep focused because he has had a lot of similar experiences.

Chris: So, when we see each other and we would help each other with companies over the years and talk about stuff and he'd be like, “oh, I'm interested in this,” and we're good at keeping each other on track. It was very helpful and so our investor meetings are fun – we climb a mountain called Sanitas up in Boulder, that's what we do. We climb up it, we talk about things, and depending on how good a shape I'm in, we get more discussion or not. But in those kind of conversations, he really helps just say, “just stop with all the superfluous stuff. I hear what you're saying, those are the things they want to do because they're fun more exciting or new. You want to just shift and grab the thing. But we've both gone through this enough times that, in our heart of hearts. We know you stick with the thing you stay persistent, you switch directions a little bit but you don't just go the opposite direction and kind of split your focus.” Time is such a critical resource; it's really easy to waste a lot of it and he's done an amazing job to help me kind of keep on track. We don't agree on direction all the time but he does really help me focus on the thing, determine if that thing is going to be successful, and if it's not, go on to the next. But don't just try to do five things at once, because you're just going to spread yourself too thin.

Jason: 27:23 That's my problem; I always have to do everything at once, and then you do everything horribly. So, yeah, that's something I have to work on, too.

Chris: 27:30 It's a hard problem as an entrepreneur who's passionate about stuff not to get passionate about stuff. But you’ve got to or, otherwise, you’ll just spread like jam too thin on toast (as Tolkien would say).

Jason: 27:44 Chris, do you have a book you can recommend to our listeners?

Chris: 27:48 Two books. One, if you're trying to hire somebody, Why Good People Can't Get Jobs by Peter Capelli. That was, to me, a life-changing book in understanding the issues with the workplace and some ways of fixing it. Even if you don't use Rebric as a tool to help you going forward, a lot of good lessons there. Another one that I kind of have taken and really appreciate the data focus and data-first aspects of it. Even though he's doing qualitative data, he's really trying to quantify it as much as possible – Jim Collins’ Built to Last. He has an entire series of books that kind of look at this approach on what's the difference between a good company and a great company by comparing similar companies within similar marketplaces. One that either performed to market standard or slightly less or failed and then another one that exceeded every expectation, and what the core differences between those two companies were. It's a great look at what makes a company great.

Jason: 28:55 Chris, I understand you have something for our listeners today.

Free Resources Below!!!!

Chris: 28:58 Yes. So, rebric.io, we are helping people find candidates for positions and right now we're primarily focused on web front-end developers. So, if you are looking for a web front-end developer and you would like to have a system that evaluates them to see if that flavor of a web front-end developer will meet your needs. We're going to be able to take on and expand our beta for another ten people. That would be for basically no cost to find an individual who meets your requirements to start with your job. As long as you're willing to work with us on defining that position, we'll find those people for you. So, this is kind of our last push before we're trying to do our next round of funding. So we really want to see and confirm that all our theories on what this system does are successful. And, hopefully, find people some great employees.

Jason: 29:53 Chris, can you provide us your social media platforms, either for yourself, first, or your company so people can reach out to you?

Chris: 29:59 rebric.io; pretty much everything R-E-B-R-I-C is going to be us. So, we're on Facebook, we have a Twitter feed. I would really just go to hired at rebric.io if you have any questions or want to follow up or try out the beta.

Jason: 30:20 For our guests, all these links would be on our show notes. Chris, we’ve come to the end of our talk. Can you provide any advice, either to brand new entrepreneurs, founders who have been in the game for a long time, or any people trying to do product management?

Chris: 30:34 Yes, go watch Darius Kazemi’s How I Learned to Win the Lottery and You Can Too. It's a great talk that summarizes a lot of entrepreneurial experience which basically states, “yeah, I was passionate, I had an idea, I built a community and made several hundred million dollars; great for you, but it doesn't always work that way.” It's a great look at the entrepreneurial cycle and it really helps you appreciate the difference between playing the lottery and learning how to win the lottery better, which is patently ridiculous – you can't, it's a lottery. And (b) how do you earn more lottery tickets, which is something that you can do. I think that's a distinction that gets lost on a lot of entrepreneurs. It's an important one to understand and know, particularly, to understand when is it time to pivot, when is it time to quit, when is it time to push forward, how to win the lottery.

Jason: 31:32 Chris, thank you for that. Thank you for being on our podcast, we really appreciate it, you gave us a lot of good value from your experiences and a lot of value. You’re doing some great things and you’re solving a really good problem to fix with Rebric.

Chris:31:45 It would be great if people didn't have to deal with the current hiring process. So, hopefully, one day.

Jason: 31:53 It's so painful for everyone. Even the hiring managers and recruiting HRs.

Chris: 31:58 There are a few things I've ever seen in business where everyone says, “this is so broken,” and yet there's so little that's actually being done about it.

Jason: 32:06 People continue doing the same thing over and over again. For our listeners, thank you for listening to our podcast, we appreciate your time as well, and remember to be great every day.