cavnessHR Podcast Show Notes

Jason: Hello and welcome to the cavnessHR podcast. I'm your host, Jason Cavness. Our guest today is Amir Bormand. Amir, are you ready to be great today?

Amir: Absolutely.

Jason: Amir is a co-founder of Elevano, a California based recruitment company who helps hundreds of people find more fulfilling jobs every year. Amir is unique to the recruiting industry because he's a former engineer himself and can still jot out a few lines of code. He's seen the technical recruiting game from both sides. During his engineering career, he constantly saw agency recruiters take short cuts and use a set of practices all for their own benefit. That's why in his current position as co-founder of Elevano, he encourages a candidate centric approach to every aspect of typical recruiting sales. His overriding desire is to smash the negative stigma, left by current recruitment strategies and replacing it with a more transparent, honest and empathetic service offering. When he's not working, he enjoys spending time with his family and traveling. He and his wife have a five year old daughter who keeps him busy with the latest trends of Disney cartoons and you just might catch him humming Disney movie theme songs. Amir, thank you for being here today. I really appreciate it.

Amir: Thank you for having me.

Jason: So what are you focused on right now? What's keeping you busy?

Amir: I mean, the market's just so tight, in terms of labor, that we found the challenge is getting to the timing of candidates and just fighting off multiple offers. I think right now, the clients are still operating maybe, as of two, three years ago, where time was on their side. Candidates had less options and it seems like any candidate we touch is already... Even passive people are... I talked to a guy yesterday. He was like, "Yeah, I'm passive." I was like, "Well, help me understand what passive means because passive might mean you have 10 interviews going on and you're just kicking around tires." He was like, "Well, actually to be honest with you, I've got three or four people I'm talking to." I go, "You're going onsite. You're not passive my friend. You are actively interviewing. You just don't need to take a job." There's a difference. So yeah, I think the challenge for us is just, I think it's for every recruiting agency, internal TA, external people. It just getting to candidates and getting through the funnel. It's just becoming a mass challenge every day.

Jason: Amir, what makes your company different from other recruiting agencies that are out there? I mean, there's a lot of them out there, what makes yours different?

Amir: Yeah, we're a dime a dozen. I think for me, I don't come from the recruiting world. So, I guess I just came into it without any preconceived notions. I had no idea. We started as a consulting company. My background was an engineer in business intelligence. I started Elevano as a business intelligence consulting company. Just chance and circumstance took us into the recruitment field. So, I didn't come from working for another agency for half a decade and set up my own shop. I literally just did things the way I wanted to have had them done when I was an engineer. So it does leave us with slightly different processes than other organizations.

Jason: So how has being a technical person helped you disrupt the recruiting industry?

Amir: I think what's interesting from my standpoint is when I do get on the phone with people and my team uses me a lot to get on speaking with engineering managers and whether it's a UX, UI marketing, I think it doesn't matter. Because I think I've sat in the other side and I've actually done the job in different capacities and I've had the opportunity to work with internal HR, internal talent people. I've hired people for my own teams, previously. I think it gives me a little bit of empathy to understand the challenges internal and then, obviously, having an engineering background working in the engineering space, does allow me to converse with managers at a different level. I think those have all given us slight advantages. I think it makes us a little bit different. The scaling of that, I realized was something that was difficult. So what we did was, we took the training program we had and we reverse engineered it to what I would have taught a technical person to do recruiting. So I spent a lot of time helping the staff build up their technical knowhow, understand how the audience wants to be engaged. I think some of what I was good at or am good at, I've tried to build into the fabric of the training. So everybody that gets hired, every person that comes on board gets a slight version of that put into their daily process and their recruitment DNA.

Jason: So you hear it on LinkedIn all the time, where a developer will say, "Hey, these recruiters keep on reaching out to me for roles that don't match. I don't even know these coding languages. I'm a senior developer and they're asking for junior developer roles." How does Elevano not make the same mistakes because it seems like a lot of developers get reached out through HR people and the roles don't even closely match.

Amir: Yeah, you know what's funny Jason, I still to this day, I haven't been in the field for a while. But I still get agencies that had my resume for a decade, email me out and ask me if I am interested in developer role. I look at myself and I sometimes joke with the staff, "Yeah, I could probably maybe, brush up and pass the initial coding screen just for fun." But, I think what we do slightly differently that helps us is, that training police. We spend a lot of time when we hire someone on identification. I think some of the myths that I even see from internal talent, acquisition teams, internal recruiters, external recruiters is there's too many people focused on broad recruiting skills. Then, the actual addressing the expertise of understanding how to qualify somebody from being a, first of all, qualified candidate and then, secondly understanding how good they are within their discipline. There's two different facets. I think there's a lack of training, especially in the agency world because everyone wants to make money quickly. Again, we've spent a lot of time that we leverage on LinkedIn to test people's assessment of understanding. Not only the technology they're recruiting for, but also the context of whether it fits a particular use case or not. So again, I think training's important. I think, that to me, is where the biggest gap is from us, to the other agencies. Again, I even see that to internal people having that same issue.

Jason: Amir, is there some type of certification that recruiters can receive?

Amir: I don't know. I mean, I know there's a ton of certifications out there that exist industry standard wise. In terms of a certification, let's say if you were focused on technology roles and engineering. I don't know if there's one that would say, "Hey, this person is an expert at recruiting JavaScript engineers or Java engineers or database developers." I don't know if it gets that granular. I think it would benefit the industry if there was some standardization. Like coming into the technical engineering recruiting role that my team, whether internal and external, knows that there's a basic competency that I have in conversing with people. I think that's where you see on LinkedIn, where people are like, "Well, you messaged me for a role that has no relevance just because it was on my resume eight years." I think that's a lot of the gap and a lot of the pain point. You'll see a lot of times on LinkedIn profiles, where people are open to opportunities, they'll say, "Third parties do not contact me." That's a damning thing to say about agency people, where... that somebody's just writing the whole industry off because the bad experiences they had.

Jason: This is one of my pet peeves with the HR industry. This is just my point of view. A person graduates college, goes to HR. First job is you go to recruiting and they recruit for technical roles. Have no knowledge, no nothing at all. "Go recruit some people." There's no training program. They have no idea what they're doing. That's one of my pet peeves.

Amir: It's hard. That's a lot of pressure. If you're a recruiter who's been dropped... And every industry has its nuances. I'd say accounting finance has its own nuances, marketing, every industry. I believe the challenge though... What's interesting to me is, if you look at different market sites out of the US... If you were to look at the UK market, they focus a lot on specialization. So they'll actually recruit specifically for oil and gas and that's it. So they at least understand the context of the industry really well. Then they have teams that recruit within different disciplines. In the states, we're very broad generalists and I'm an engineer from my background and I have a hard time being able to recruit dynamic roles in the engineering space. Sometimes, I run across something I just don't know and I go on Wikipedia and brush up on it. But an average recruiter that doesn't have a master's in information systems, probably can't grasp a technical concept right off the fly. It's hard, even for me. I think what you mentioned, I think that training piece is really where I think organizations don't spend the time from the external agency part because it's an overhead, it's a profit. I think internal teams, I think that's where, if they had a better training program and again they have the engineers internal. So, I always have always thought... I've never held that role, but I've always thought, "Why not have the recruiter start off on the team they're recruiting for, spend a week there, really understand what they do from a fundamental perspective.

Jason: That's a great idea. You have to wonder why more people don't do that. That's a wonderful idea. Amir, can Elevano be used for nontechnical roles?

Amir: We are. We work in a lot of different components as well, so client. We've done a lot of recruiting roles recently. I think recruiting roles have now become the second most in demand role we work on and I think they're as hard to recruit for as engineering roles. We've done a lot of stuff in the creative space now. In the past, we did accounting finance. We do less of it now. I'd say engineering, creative and recruitment are the main areas we actually kind of diversified into.

Jason: Is Elevano more for internal recruiters or can so-called recruiting agencies, also use your company's platform?

Amir: I mean, we don't partner with a lot of other agencies per se, to work on roles. Part of it is that, again, we have a certain way of doing things that wouldn't mesh with a lot of other agencies just because I don't allow anyone to mass mail out of an applicant tracking system. So every email sent out in the organization's one-to-one. So no one's allowed to go click to the nearest 300 people in email. So that would conflict with my own personal philosophy of the industry, when it comes to partnering with other agencies. But pretty much any internal team, yeah, we're open to partnering with anyone.

Jason: Amir, you started the company in, I think 2011, correct?

Amir: Absolutely.

Jason: Since that time, can you talk about something positive and negative since that time in the recruiting industry?

Amir: So, I think the positive has been, I think, more people are moving away from just putting a job on a job board and waiting. I've seen most companies move away from that. I'd actually like them to eliminate it altogether. We actually stopped spending a penny on job boards because if we're not really waiting for the candidate, we're doing the work, let's not pay for the slot. I think that to me, has been the positive trend I'm seeing. I hope it continues. I think the negative is, I still think it's the same issue that we have, where the belief is, the third party recruiter is really out just to make the fee and that's it. I think until we're able to provide a little bit more value and maybe change the perception. I think the external agency world is at threat their technology, whether it's AI coming down the pike. I mean, there's other engineers trying to solve problems for us and I think we're actually not solving the problems that tech should be solving. It's process integrity, transparency. Those are some basic stuff that you can implement for free.

Jason: So I could be wrong, but I think most recruiters charge 20%, I think, or something around there?

Amir: 20%, correct.

Jason: If it was up to you, what would the pricing model would be? How should that change?

Amir: I actually, fundamentally believe that's too low. If you were going to ask me, I think it should be much higher. I think, based on the strength of the labor market, the fee should change. Because obviously, when unemployment is to this level. Every candidate has a distinctly higher value to a client, if they're looking to grow and they need to hire. I actually think the industry has it wrong. I think, if I was internal, I'd be like, "I'd pay you 30% to exclusively work for me and bring me talent. Because I'm looking to hire that type of person." So yeah, I also do on the flip side, think that some of the agencies that are in long term relationships should put in a tier process. So that they can go down and enjoy a longer relationship. Obviously, if you're going to buy and work with somebody in the longer term, you should be establishing a better rate for that client.

Jason: Amir, how often do you get to keep up with your coding skills?

Amir: I have a couple of WordPress sites that we maintain and even though, we have developers that work with it. I still like to jump in there and fiddle with some of the PHP or JavaScript or HTML. I've really started in the last year, growing to enjoy search engine optimization because it kind of gets a little bit technical, in terms of the way you look at things. I don't get to code a whole lot. I did have a client that had a SQL challenge a couple of years ago, about two years ago, and I didn't like it. So I had to take it, just to show them that anybody with a reasonable SQL background should pass it and I scored a 99% and they emailed us back saying, "That candidate you submitted that scored a 99, we want to talk to that guy. The awkward thing was, I was like, "Oops, sorry, I didn't mean to use my real name." But I said, "That was the problem." I said, "You have these arbitrary coding tests that I haven't been hands on for nearly a decade. I could pass it. So what value does that provide you?"

Jason: So Amir, how much pushback have you received from the recruiting industry with what you're doing?

Amir: I think all our clients love the way we're doing things. I think the hard part for us, has been is to cut through... I feel like there's the whole industry and we're a drop of water in the ocean. Where we're trying to do things in a transparent way. We're trying to be very open. We disclosed our company client information really quickly. We actually sometimes disclose who the client is off of the initial email without actually talking to somebody, so they can do their due diligence, depending on who the client is. I think we're trying to bring as much transparency as we can into the process. If we do submit multiple clients to... a candidate to multiple clients. We let everyone know where that candidate is. So everyone's fully aware and it's fully out there. I think, it's very hard to promote that style of business with an industry where sometimes it's not the way it's done in other agencies. Where people are spamming people, mass mailing people. I think the value, some of what we're doing, is a little bit lost. But I'm hoping also to bring some attention to how, again, a non recruiting person came into the industry and who didn't like the way he was headhunted and how... in an ideal world. Maybe sometimes I'm being ideological about the way I think recruiting should be. But I don't have another fallback, in terms of having done it someplace else to go, "Okay, well, this is how we could've done it." I just don't know that to be honest with you.

Jason: Amir, how do candidates or companies find you to work with you or do you have a marketing plan that you use? How does that work?

Amir: Yeah, we actually... We're pretty active on social. We've actually noticed a very interesting trend in our social activity in the fact that I don't get a lot of people... The engineers that we were producing content for, they don't actually respond back to the content directly. They actually DM or send a message back on LinkedIn to not comment on it publicly. The main focus is that, "Well, I don't want my employer to potentially see or a recruiter see that I commented on a recruiters post and think that I'm looking." So we get a lot of activity that's generated from our social media posts. We also do a lot of email marketing. Our campaigns are very unique. We are highly personalized, highly targeted. t to

Jason: So Amir, it's college graduation season right now. What advice do you have for someone, either they're graduating, trying to find their first job, or someone changing their jobs or they're in the job market. What advice would you have for them?

Amir: So I think this is probably the best time that's ever existed to display your skills to get hired for a job. A, the market's strong. Then, I think there's multiple social platforms, whether it's blogging, videos, GitHub for your coding. There are so many different platforms to share your expertise and viewpoints. You can talk about your learning process and document it on social media, on YouTube, talk about it and that becomes a body of work. I mean, an employer can look at that and go, "This person doesn't have the skills but they're putting in the effort. I can actually go examine it." I think that'd be what I would do, if I was looking to do something I'd never done before.

Jason: I know, I tell people all the time, because a lot of college students are like, "Well, this entry-level job, it says two years experience." Well, I say, "What they're looking for is some kind of internship, some kind of portfolio, something on GitHub, a blog post." They're looking for something. Anything to say, "Hey, you are trying to improve your craft."

Amir: It's not easy. I agree with you. I think, there's a gap between people who want to do something and taking advantage of the tools and I think it's not easy. Sometimes you make it to be a really big thing of starting something. Actually, what I've come to realize is, we all have a mobile phone. Everyone has one. All you have to do is literally, turn it on and talk about whatever it is that you're trying to get into. Let's say you want to get into the HR space, talk about some new topic on HR, put it on Twitter. Somebody will see it. I read yesterday again, about the first Uber hire who responded to a tweet by the Uber founder about, "Hey, we need to hire someone." The guy basically said, "Yeah, me." He became a billionaire today by simply just being proactive and taking advantage of somebody who said, "I'm looking for help." This guy had never done it, but he said, "I'm willing to learn it." So sometimes it's just that initiative, I think.

Jason: Yeah, I agree with you. Amir, can you provide your social media links, for you and your company, so people can reach out to you?

Amir: Sure. Yeah. I think, Amir Bormand on LinkedIn and Twitter. I think it's The Amir Bormand on Facebook and Instagram and then, Elevano.com E-L-E-V-A-N-O.com is my business.

Jason: We'll have the links on our show notes and the show notes will be found at www.cavnessHRblog.com and also, be sure to subscribe regular view at the cavnessHR podcast on iTunes and Amazon Alexa.

Jason: Amir, can you talk about the vision for your company?

Amir: I think the vision is, we want to do better than the existing recruitment services provided. I think it's a blanket statement. I think for candidates and clients. I want the experience in working with us to be obviously, better than any other agency. Whether you are a client or a candidate. I think if I could do that and I think that leverage is, the components where transparency are cornerstone to that. Then I think I'd be really happy. However big we got as a company.

Jason: Amir, are people changing jobs quicker than ever? My generation, you stayed at the same company, got your gold watch and pension. Nowadays, it seems the rule is to change jobs every two years. Do you find that to be true or what do you see with that?

Amir: I think it depends on the person. I've seen people that are committed to what they believe in. They want to stay and I think there's people... I think, some of it falls on the company. I think if the company's provided an environment where somebody feels fulfilled in improving upon their skills. They're improving upon their life position, career ladder, salary benefits. I think the overall opportunity of the company, if that's still appealing, not a lot of people leave. Somebody starts looking because there's a deficiency somewhere that they need to fulfill. Whether they're just tired of the same job, they're looking for better financial components. I still see some people who are at companies long term and when I see somebody who's someplace at eight, 10 years, I'm like, "We're probably not going to get that person to move." But if I see the history every year and a half, I'm like, "This person hasn't found what they're looking for. Maybe they don't know what they're looking for." I think some of the cornerstone for me is, when we're recruiting, is trying to understand whether or not the client we're working with can actually help fulfill whatever gap they're looking to meet.

Jason: When should somebody leave their position?

Amir: I think it's difficult. I'm a big fan of, I don't think you should leave unless you really need to and I think it's different for everyone. If it's a financial thing, that's different, right? That's a different reason you're going to leave. If it's a dynamic internal, where you can't mesh with your team or your boss and you've brought it up and you've taken some steps internally to remedy it or maybe, culturally they've shifted. I think there's so many different factors that goes into why someone should leave. But I think there's needs to be a distinct reason and I think someone should try to solve... I think it's a relationship, right? I think an employer, employee, it's a relationship. Just like any other relationship you have, you need to work on it. If you're bringing to attention the issues you have in your relationship, maybe one side can address it. I think if it's unaddressable, then you need to start looking to a find a relationship that's better for you long term.

Jason: Amir, we're coming to the end of our talk. Can you give our listeners any wisdom or advice or any subject you want to talk about?

Amir: I think, just kind of touching on the employer brand and what people are looking for. I think, the interesting thing that I've noticed, now that I'm working in the recruiting industry and sometimes, I try to put myself in the shoes of our candidates and I have a hard time sometimes understanding the why, of a specific client. We do a lot of due diligence. We dive in. We try to read as much as we can and then, I put myself in the shoes of somebody who's just dropping onto that career page and trying to figure out what the company's about. Whether or not, everyone wants to do their own research and it's really hard sometimes. I think we do as good as a job as we can conveying that, but I think, I'd love to see a shift in the way career portals are structured, so that they tell stories versus snapshots. I think we're still stuck in the older school mentality of what marketing means. Trying to defy branding and culture within snapshots of words. I think the candidates struggle trying to find those answers and what happens is they ended up going to other sites. They go to Glassdoor and you better hope your Glassdoor is tidy because if they go to Glassdoor and there's some dirty laundry being aired, that's the perception that they have with the company. I have a lot of candidates that drop out because that's where they get their viewpoint of what it's like to work someplace. I think that's a massive risk for companies really.

Jason: Amir, thank you for your time today. I really appreciate it. You're doing a lot of great things, so I really appreciate your time today.

Amir: Thank you for having me on. I appreciate it.

Jason: Listeners, thanks for your time as well and remember to be great every day.

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CavnessHR: Focus on your business, we've got your HR

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June 16, 2019

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cavnessHR Podcast Show Notes

A talk with Amir Bormand of Elevano

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